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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 1, 2016 10:23:07 GMT -5
I tend to do a lot of reading online. Like any other hobby you see a lot of different opinions about any topic. The issue of CUC comes up often(especially with newer tanks), with people ranging from thinking they are completely unnecessary to those that adhere closely to the higher numbers recommended by online vendors.
I thought it might be interesting to have a discussion about it and get every ones thoughts and reasoning's behind those opinions.
I know quite a few people push the idea that they are not needed and that nutrient control is all that is required. While this obviously works for some people I don't think that's true for every setup and it doesn't actually mirror the reef environment. A wild reef is full of herbivores and would likely be overrun by algae if it weren't for their constant grazing keeping them in check. Also systems with higher bioloads, whether because of the number of fish, or in the case of NPS heavy coral feeding etc....
ULNS clearly need the least help, but not everyone runs those. So I lean towards having the few that there is a spectrum in reefs from ULNS to NPS or FOWLR in which the size of the cuc should or at least could increase.
Grazers can also apply selective pressure by eating a preferred food and ignoring other thereby allowing the reefer to exert some behind the scenes influence on what grows. Unfortunately I think this usually works in the wrong direction as grazers seem to prefer the easier to deal with forms like diatoms, turfs, and even cyano and ignore the more pest like species.
This got me thinking. When I look at recommended cucs and what people purchase on their own, they seem heavily weighted toward grazers as opposed to more emphasis on detrivores. It seems to me detrivores should be more of the focus. Elimination of uneaten food and decaying organisms(there is always something reproducing/growing/dying on a reef, is a more important function than grazing per say. Granted detrivore poop will also ultimately feed algae but it is more easily assimilated into more basic compound than letting something rot/decay. Some of that energy is used in the growth and metabolism of the detrivore. Obviously some creatures are omnivores and can occupy both niches, but in general things are better at one role than the other.
So what are your favorite cleaners(and why) or perhaps cleaning helpers would be better as there is no substitute for proper maintenance.
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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 1, 2016 10:32:25 GMT -5
I'll start; I tend to like a lot of diversity. Not so much a huge number of anything, but lots of different mouths to hopefully cover all bases. But I've noticed as in the original OP that it's heavily weighted on grazers. So I'm thinking of doing my next tank different. My idea is to focus on detrivores with a relatively small grazing support selection. Dwarf Planaxis Nassarius vibex Tonga Nassarius Fighting Conch(if it's a larger system) There are several other interesting sand dwelling scavengers but at least some sources site them as predators on your other cuc members www.reefcleaners.org/bad-snailsThen for grazing support; Stomatella Collinista a small number of Trochus Admittedly this combo won't work in every tank(wrasses and peppermint shrimp would likely eliminate the stomatella) and larger systems might have to ability to support interesting larger grazers like fuzzy chiton or tropical abilone. I guess I'll leave it there for now and see where the discussion leads(if anyone is interested that is) |
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Post by reefkprz on Jan 2, 2016 15:33:08 GMT -5
CUC for a 75g: usually the biggest part of my crew is brittle stars both micro and full sized for full sized ones in a 75 I go for at least 6-10 in the long run (based on how I feed, you may require less), then i use a variety of others usually a couple astrea about 3 for a 75g about half dozen trochus snails since they breed in our aquariums no need to add more I just add that many so as to make sure I get both sexes, stomatella snails I add as soon as I can since they also reproduce in our tanks. maybe 3 blue leg and a red leg or two hermits just because I like them not really for function if they get too big I drop em in the sump. always about 10-15 nassarius snails because I never know how many are dying off.. I usually add 2 every month or two. if I see an upsurge in bristle worms i'll add half dozen at once to keep that part of the food chain locked up. I may or may not add an emerald crab depends on the tank and how its running. I throw in some random whatever is on sale snails just to catch whatever, if they last good if they don't I dont add more.I tend to focus mostly on detritivores because if its not algae why let it become it?
I find the cuc demands change with the tanks age and equipment. my last tank was many years old this current tank is new and the cuc is building based on how the tank acts. I have to be honest there is NO perfect CUC, there is "perfect for right now" six months or a year from now the needs will change. If the crew doesn't change then you are having problems and you don't know why. If you don't have a love affair with your tank and know your entire crew (and that means that random grey sponge growing under the rock in the back left corner, your not going to see the changes as they happen until its too late).
Keep in mind, I feed 5 or more times a day and do water changes between 30 and 50 percent regularly and do reset changes (90% or more) about every 6-8 months. my methods are not to be attempted by the weak of heart.
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Post by ryansweatt2004 on Jan 2, 2016 15:50:13 GMT -5
For cleanup crew, I like a mix of banded trochus and Tonga nasarius snails, sea cucumbers, blue tuxedo urchins, electric blue knuckle and scarlet reef hermits and emerald crabs. Tha amount I keep changes depending on bioload.
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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 3, 2016 15:32:09 GMT -5
CUC for a 75g: usually the biggest part of my crew is brittle stars both micro and full sized for full sized ones in a 75 I go for at least 6-10 in the long run (based on how I feed, you may require less), then i use a variety of others usually a couple astrea about 3 for a 75g about half dozen trochus snails since they breed in our aquariums no need to add more I just add that many so as to make sure I get both sexes, stomatella snails I add as soon as I can since they also reproduce in our tanks. maybe 3 blue leg and a red leg or two hermits just because I like them not really for function if they get too big I drop em in the sump. always about 10-15 nassarius snails because I never know how many are dying off.. I usually add 2 every month or two. if I see an upsurge in bristle worms i'll add half dozen at once to keep that part of the food chain locked up. I may or may not add an emerald crab depends on the tank and how its running. I throw in some random whatever is on sale snails just to catch whatever, if they last good if they don't I dont add more.I tend to focus mostly on detritivores because if its not algae why let it become it? I find the cuc demands change with the tanks age and equipment. my last tank was many years old this current tank is new and the cuc is building based on how the tank acts. I have to be honest there is NO perfect CUC, there is "perfect for right now" six months or a year from now the needs will change. If the crew doesn't change then you are having problems and you don't know why. If you don't have a love affair with your tank and know your entire crew (and that means that random grey sponge growing under the rock in the back left corner, your not going to see the changes as they happen until its too late). Keep in mind, I feed 5 or more times a day and do water changes between 30 and 50 percent regularly and do reset changes (90% or more) about every 6-8 months. my methods are not to be attempted by the weak of heart. I don't really count micro stars since they'll be there anyways as will bristleworms. Which isn't to say they don't make a difference, just not usually something you usually go out and buy. Large stars are something I've never tried(i have nanos) but will definitely use in a larger system. The Trochus and stomatella breeding is why I picked them over other grazing snails which might be as good or even better but not having to replace them makes up for a little efficiency. It's also why I picked collinista since they'll self regulate population based on available food sources. |
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Post by jasonandsarah on Jan 4, 2016 6:28:48 GMT -5
I think a lot of the reason people focus on herbivores over detrivores depending on tank size is, it can be hard to keep a large group fed. You definitely don't want to get so many detrivores that you're trying to spot feed them or they're dying off one by one. Even a Ulns has some algae so herbivores normally always have something to eat. Unfortunately for me I have this dang melanurus that won't allow any of my clean up crew to live long.  |
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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 4, 2016 6:58:40 GMT -5
I think a lot of the reason people focus on herbivores over detrivores depending on tank size is, it can be hard to keep a large group fed. You definitely don't want to get so many detrivores that you're trying to spot feed them or they're dying off one by one. Even a Ulns has some algae so herbivores normally always have something to eat. Unfortunately for me I have this dang melanurus that won't allow any of my clean up crew to live long. I see your point, although I've never heard of anyone trying to spot feed nassarius  I wonder if fuzzy chitons, tropical abilone, or urchins would be safe from your wrasse. Although to be honest I'm not sure I saw enough algae in your tank to support something that size. |
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Post by jasonandsarah on Jan 4, 2016 7:29:24 GMT -5
I think a lot of the reason people focus on herbivores over detrivores depending on tank size is, it can be hard to keep a large group fed. You definitely don't want to get so many detrivores that you're trying to spot feed them or they're dying off one by one. Even a Ulns has some algae so herbivores normally always have something to eat. Unfortunately for me I have this dang melanurus that won't allow any of my clean up crew to live long. I see your point, although I've never heard of anyone trying to spot feed nassarius I wonder if fuzzy chitons, tropical abilone, or urchins would be safe from your wrasse. Although to be honest I'm not sure I saw enough algae in your tank to support something that size. I don't really like urchins, have to look up tropical abilone and I already have tons and tons of tiny chitrons in my tank.(red and white) I've actually been raising nutrients and getting algae :thumbdown: |
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Post by reefkprz on Jan 4, 2016 7:40:36 GMT -5
I think a lot of the reason people focus on herbivores over detrivores depending on tank size is, it can be hard to keep a large group fed. You definitely don't want to get so many detrivores that you're trying to spot feed them or they're dying off one by one. Even a Ulns has some algae so herbivores normally always have something to eat. Unfortunately for me I have this dang melanurus that won't allow any of my clean up crew to live long. LOL I know, but when you feed like I do lack of food is never a problem. Basically the way to balance detritivores is pretty simple if you see a rather large abundance of bristle worms you can use more of other detritivores to keep their population down they self regulate as well. I harvest really large bristle worms and let the small ones be. though sometimes I'll leave a particularly large one just because a 16 inch bristle worm is actually pretty cool looking just dont grab rock by their blind side. brittle stars are underrated as far as CUC goes and I don't know why. they are hands down one of the best detritivores out there and aren't picky on food size or composition, and are super easy to spot feed if your tank seems to be low on food. just avoid the green ones unless you hate your fish. |
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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 4, 2016 7:54:40 GMT -5
I see your point, although I've never heard of anyone trying to spot feed nassarius I wonder if fuzzy chitons, tropical abilone, or urchins would be safe from your wrasse. Although to be honest I'm not sure I saw enough algae in your tank to support something that size. I don't really like urchins, have to look up tropical abilone and I already have tons and tons of tiny chitrons in my tank.(red and white) I've actually been raising nutrients and getting algae :thumbdown: Well fuzzy chins get 3 inch ed long so not quite like the little one. |
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Post by jasonandsarah on Jan 4, 2016 8:03:29 GMT -5
I don't really like urchins, have to look up tropical abilone and I already have tons and tons of tiny chitrons in my tank.(red and white) I've actually been raising nutrients and getting algae :thumbdown: Well fuzzy chins get 3 inch ed long so not quite like the little one. I know what your saying but they eat the same stuff right? I mean I have enough to out eat 25 3" ones, if not more lol... there's 3-4 under every frag plug and more under rocks. |
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Post by Rakahrd Eastbrook, Me. on Jan 10, 2016 11:15:30 GMT -5
I have a large assortment of CUC, several species of snails, blue leg and red leg crabs, 2 green crabs 3 peppermint shrimp.several nassarius snails . a yellow tang and a Lawnmower blemmy. I was fearful I would not have enough algae to keep them going but they seem to do well. I have noticed that my cone snails are reproducing I scrape eggs off bi weekly .
I do add some red Nori occasionally as a treat. I dont see any algae growth in my main tank but some in my sump where it belongs
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Post by fermentedhiker on Jan 16, 2016 21:48:05 GMT -5
Just some observations from my own tanks. I've never seen anything as efficient at eating diatoms as my astrea(tectus?). It literally polished the rocks so that they were as white as when they came out of the box. Now that the diatoms are gone and it's GSA it's nowhere near as effective. The nerites that I have in my freshwater tanks polish the glass to the point that I never have to scrape the glass.......ever. The saltwater tanks....not so much Florida ceriths as well as the variety that they carry at the LFS seem active but kind of randomly work all over the place never getting anything completely clean. Also blue legged hermits favor them for new shells. They are the only snails that the hermits have killed to get a shell. dwarf cerith are very active but due to their small size don't have a noticeable impact but I'm sure they can get places the others can't. The two 29 gallons I'm running will probably always have just a big mix of whatever for visual variety as well as system diversity. If I can manage to setup a 180 in the coming years I'll take a more measure approach. Something like; detrivore; tigertail cuke, fighting conch, tonga nassarius Nassarius vibex, dwarf planaxis, serpent/brittlestar grazer; fuzzy chiton, tropical abilone, trochus and if I have macros growing in the sump I'd add nerites(to the sump) because they are far and away the best at cleaning film algae off the surface tissue of other "plants" without damage. |
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