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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 14:13:00 GMT -5
i'm usually not much of a tester but i recently bought a red sea test kit to see what my readings looked like... i measured my tank water as well as my R/O water:
tank: phosphates 2ppm (!!) nitrates 45ppm
r/o: tds 0 phosphates .16ppm (should obviously be 0, but still doesn't explain why my tank readings are x10 higher than this) nitrates 0ppm
why are my phosphates so high? leaching live rock? i never skimp on weekly 10% water changes... my weekly routine also involves changing the filter sock, cleaning the skimmer body/collection cup and aggressively siphoning my sandbed. sandbed is shallow and only a year or so old. i feed roughly 5 days a week and never put more food in the water than what can be consumed in a few minutes. decent sized cuc, and bio-load is relatively small compared to most tanks that i see.
i'm aware running carbon is an option but that seems (correct me if I'm wrong) to really act as a band-aid instead of treating the source of the issue. my tank looks great so maybe I should just say forget it, but i have to scrape algae off the glass more than I'd like and I also get weary adding new fish and coral to a tank with phosphate levels that seem ridiculously high, even for a predominantly softy tank. anyone have any input?
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Post by BriMc on Aug 9, 2014 14:51:53 GMT -5
I would think either your rock or sand bed. I am betting on your rock.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 15:23:25 GMT -5
I would think either your rock or sand bed. I am betting on your rock. thanks for the reply! i siphon the sandbed weekly so I don't think that's it, but who knows at this point... i think it could possibly be not skimming aggressively enough (i get about a quarter of a cup full of skimmate weekly) or maybe not changing the filter sock enough - I change the sock weekly and hear a lot of people doing it every other day... i figure with a small bio-load that i can get away with doing it weekly but maybe i should start doing it more often and measure the results in a few months.
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Post by ryansweatt2004 on Aug 9, 2014 15:53:20 GMT -5
So as we both know, you and I have talked on many occasions about this. For anyone else that may also be having the same or similar issues, here are some things can try-
1. If your rock is old, from a previously setup tank I assume. The chances for it to leach phosphate are high. That said, they don't leach phosphate forever. Especially if your keeping up on weekly maintenance. If you've tested and narrowed down the source of phosphates to your rock, the only realistic things you can do is constantly use a phosphate removing media like granulated feric oxide or granulated aluminum oxide. I prefer the aluminum oxide because it's cleaner and removes phosphates quicker but it has it's issues. The other thing is many water changes.
2. Your RO unit, are you still testing your Tds with a hand held meter? Knowing how much Tds is getting through your membrane will help. Any time your RO unit is shut off, Tds builds up. It's called Tds kreep. As soon as water demand is there to turn your RO unit on, that high Tds water gets pushed through if you don't manually flush the membrane before each use. This not only exhausts DI resin quickly, it also shortens the life of the RO membrane itself. If your using an rodi then there should be zero Tds coming from your rodi water. If you end up finding that your getting Tds higher than zero comming from your rodi it might be time to check or replace your filters. Low water pressure can also cause higher Tds.
3. Water storage. Not many people would think their water storage containers could be a source of phosphate but it's true. There's been many dozens of discussions on other forums about plastic containers such as brute trash cans actually leaching phosphates into the pure or mixed water being stored inside. While this definitely can happen, again it's a short lived source of phosphates at best. Also it's one of the easiest sources to correct by just adding a phosphate sponge like a poly filter or media to the water container.
4. Salt mix. Most salt mixes contain trace amounts of phosphates because phosphates are actually an essential part of keeping many corals healthy. Yea seems to counter what we all think about phosphates but the symbiotic algae living inside any photosynthetic corals actually need a certain amount of phosphate to thrive. A way to figure out if it's your water source or your salt mix that is adding measurable phosphate is to test your RO water before and after adding your salt mix.
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Post by jasonandsarah on Aug 9, 2014 15:59:11 GMT -5
Carbon can actually add phosphates to your tank it doesn't really remove them. It can remove some dissolved organic compounds but you'd need gfo for phosphates. Witch nitrates that high and high phosphates maybe consider some kind of carbon dosing? Bio pellets, all in one bio pellets(takes out like 15x as much phosphates as regular) or vinegar/vodka. I think with phosphates that high your going to need to hit your phosphates from a couple different angles at once for awhile. They say to change you socks every 3 days so things don't have a chance to break down and get to the nitrogen cycle. I'd think you should be getting more in your skimmer cup then that I have a lightly stocked 75g and get at least a full cup if not more. Especially right now since I'm running 2 skimmers! Lol:)
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Post by BriMc on Aug 9, 2014 15:59:50 GMT -5
New rock can leach large amounts of phosphates also. Marco rock, some of the live cultured rock etc. Also even though you vacuum your substrate once a week you can still have sand leaching phosphate especially if it is wild or beach sand. We were just at Jays in Nh and had the phosphates in two of his live rock tanks checked and they were both running high phosphates. We just went and talked to a guy who uses no additives to his tanks, first thing he says to one person in our group is stop the GFO it is not helping. He also explained the reason dosing vodka or vinegar works until the bacteria grows to a proportion that the tank cannot expel it. If your rock or sand is leaching phosphates you are shoveling shit against the tide. Get ready to buy all sorts of reactors, GFO, Carbon, Bio pellets and they usually do not correct the problem they manage it. Dong also does not try to achieve 0 phosphates as corals need some. Depending on what size your tank is and the amount of rock you have it may be cheaper in the long run to buy new rock.
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Post by foggman on Aug 9, 2014 16:11:50 GMT -5
I had real high phosphate in my 46, it was 5ppm, when I switched to my current 110 set up, I started with mostly new water and soaked a lot if my old rock In RO water to leach it out, I was running GFO and the lowest I could get it was .6 due to leach out from the rock and sand. I now use lanthium and have gotten them down to .25, as it continues to leach put of the rock it will eventually get to where I want it .05. For you it is probably stored up in the rock and the sand it's self, vaccuming the sand won't do much as it absorbs into the sand it's self, and also the rock. Easy sells lanthium, I use a syring and put it into my over flow and my filter sock catches most of it. Lanthium bonds to phosphate almost instantly, what ever my sock doesn't get my skimmer does. Lanthium isn't for everyone, but used properly it can have real good results. Do some research on it. Also to note so not use it if you are using any products that have aluminum, like one Ryan mentiond
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Post by jasonandsarah on Aug 9, 2014 16:12:28 GMT -5
The sad part is with phosphates that high it's going to bind to your rock and substrate so when they get low it'll slowly leach back out. so it will probably be a slow process to get rid of it completely. If your tank looks awesome then I wouldn't overly worry about it. Just put a plan into action and execute it slowly. Slow and steady wins the race.
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Post by maineultraclassic on Aug 9, 2014 17:04:55 GMT -5
If the corals look good, and the fish look good..............don't worry about it.
I never test for phosphates, nitrates.........or anything for that matter. If my PH is between 8.1 and 8.3 and my salinity is at 35..........I'm happy.
No ro/di water, no gfo, and currently no carbon.
Skimmer and chaeto........works for me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 14:22:21 GMT -5
So as we both know, you and I have talked on many occasions about this. For anyone else that may also be having the same or similar issues, here are some things can try- 1. If your rock is old, from a previously setup tank I assume. The chances for it to leach phosphate are high. That said, they don't leach phosphate forever. Especially if your keeping up on weekly maintenance. If you've tested and narrowed down the source of phosphates to your rock, the only realistic things you can do is constantly use a phosphate removing media like granulated feric oxide or granulated aluminum oxide. I prefer the aluminum oxide because it's cleaner and removes phosphates quicker but it has it's issues. The other thing is many water changes. 2. Your RO unit, are you still testing your Tds with a hand held meter? Knowing how much Tds is getting through your membrane will help. Any time your RO unit is shut off, Tds builds up. It's called Tds kreep. As soon as water demand is there to turn your RO unit on, that high Tds water gets pushed through if you don't manually flush the membrane before each use. This not only exhausts DI resin quickly, it also shortens the life of the RO membrane itself. If your using an rodi then there should be zero Tds coming from your rodi water. If you end up finding that your getting Tds higher than zero comming from your rodi it might be time to check or replace your filters. Low water pressure can also cause higher Tds. 3. Water storage. Not many people would think their water storage containers could be a source of phosphate but it's true. There's been many dozens of discussions on other forums about plastic containers such as brute trash cans actually leaching phosphates into the pure or mixed water being stored inside. While this definitely can happen, again it's a short lived source of phosphates at best. Also it's one of the easiest sources to correct by just adding a phosphate sponge like a poly filter or media to the water container. 4. Salt mix. Most salt mixes contain trace amounts of phosphates because phosphates are actually an essential part of keeping many corals healthy. Yea seems to counter what we all think about phosphates but the symbiotic algae living inside any photosynthetic corals actually need a certain amount of phosphate to thrive. A way to figure out if it's your water source or your salt mix that is adding measurable phosphate is to test your RO water before and after adding your salt mix. It's gotta be leaching live rock, it makes sense considering I've added several new pieces of rock over the last several months. I have a built in TDS meter on my BRS RO/DI and I also on occasion use a hand held meter to double-check accuracy. Getting 0 TDS from both so it's not my R/O filters. All nitrate/phosphate readings checked out on my R/O water (well .16ppm phosphates but that doesn't explain why my tank is x15 higher) and Salt Mix water as well (which rules out the container and salt itself), so unless I'm overfeeding, which I really don't think is the case, it's gotta be either rock leaching, or possibly built up crud in hard to access areas of the tank that don't get sufficient flow... going to do some bigger water changes and start turkey-bastering the dead-flow areas to see how readings improve... might also starve my tank to rule that out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 14:25:47 GMT -5
If the corals look good, and the fish look good..............don't worry about it. I think you have the right idea! Testing usually does nothing other than make me paranoid that I'm doing something wrong when my tank otherwise looks totally fine and healthy. Testing companies have a smart business model, lol.
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Post by Lance on Aug 19, 2014 19:17:48 GMT -5
A couple of comments: I bought used live rock when I started a few years back (3-4)...turns out it was loaded with Phos. I had Bryophyta outbreaks like you've never seen. I managed it with water changes, Chaetomorpha, and GFO. To this day I can tell when my GFO is either saturated or needs to be adjusted by watching the patches of Bryophyta start to poke out. Also, remember that when water evaporates it leaves any phosphate behind. So, it is possible for your phos levels to rise in your reef tank over time simply due to that. The key is to a) minimize your input (RO/DI, don't overfeed) and b) take it out faster than it goes in (GFO, algae scrubbers, water change, etc.) Re: "If the corals look good..." I don't completely disagree with this but a problem could arise from not addressing your levels now. Continuing to accumulate phos is not a great strategy for long term success.
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